Solenoid or something else??

[Russell Reay]

I just installed this solenoid acquired from Amazon. Push button switch is NAPA for a 1948 Ford. I believe this is an original starter switch, not a repop. I turned the copper strip upside down so it makes good contact (I think) all the time. When pushing the button, the starter engages and the engine turns over, but it sounds like the teeth are not engaging all the way. There is a wicked, nasty chatter which in the old days would be instantly diagnosed as a low battery or bad solenoid. In my case the battery is fully charged. If I take the solenoid out of the circuit, remove the starter switch, and touch the neg cable to the big copper lug on top the starter, it turns over with vigor just the way it should. The wires from the terminal box to the push button to the solenoid are 12 and 14 ga. It's hard for me to think that those small wires are the problem, but maybe. If it is just a poor quality solenoid, I'll replace it with a Ford tractor one from NAPA. Recommendations please

[AL in NY]

To me it sound like you need to make a better connection between the starter switch and the starter. If it were me, I'd take the starter switch out of the circuit and wire the solenoid directly to the starter.

[Bob C]

The blue wire should go to a momentary switch that is grounded.
Is that how it is wired?

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Bob C

The blue wire should go to a momentary switch that is grounded.
Is that how it is wired?

That is what I asked in his other thread. Never answered...

[ModelA29]

Are you trying to run a 12V solenoid on a 6V system? "from Amazon" generally means ChiCom products for newer applications not for the small market of old cars.

[Flathead Fever]

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That looks like a new solenoid, why would you need to turn the contact over. When you say push button switch do you mean a push button actually on the bottom of the solenoid or a push button switch on the dash. A push button on the solenoid that does not work means the solenoid is bad or a cable is bad. You ruled out the battery and the starter. Individual parts are checked by doing a voltage drop test across the solenoid and cables while cranking the engine. It could not have anything to do with the wire that controls it if it won't crank by pushing the momentary switch on the solenoid. Now, If you are talking about a push button switch on the dash, then it might be what Bob said. There are starter solenoids controlled by a ground connection to a grounded switch and ones controlled by the voltage side. There are ones with insulated bases and grounded bases. 6V and 12V solenoids. Remove that blue wire and put a voltmeter from the solenoid terminal to ground and see if you get battery voltage. That would indicate that terminal is controlled by a switch hooked to a ground. Put the voltmeter on the blue wire and ground and crank it and see if you have voltage that means that wire went to a solenoid controlled by voltage. If you do get a reading from the solenoid terminal to ground, touch a wire from the terminal to ground and see if it cranks. To see if it's a bad cable, even though they look new just hook a jumper cable to each end of each individual cable that quickly bypassed them without wasting time removing them. Every once in a while, when they crimp the end onto a new battery cable the insulation did not get stripped off. The cable looks brand new is not making any connection or just barely. That is found by doing a voltage drop test on the cable. An ohm meter will not find it because the tiny voltage current of an ohmmeter can easily flow through a single strand of a large battery cable but the large current of a starter cannot.

[Russell Reay]

Originally Posted by Bob C

The blue wire should go to a momentary switch that is grounded.
Is that how it is wired?

The blue wire is to a momentary switch which is NOT grounded. The yellow wire is power from the battery to the terminal block, and I have run a 12 ga wire to the momentary switch (the push button switch in my OP). ie, power from battery to term block to mom switch to solenoid. I noted that one owner had tapped the copper plug on top of the starter, and secured the battery cable with a 5/16 bolt. That would definitely give me a excellent connection, but there is the risk of drilling thru the copper and damaging the starter . This solenoid was ordered as a 6V unit, and it is labeled as such.

[Keith True]

What did you use to hold the copper/bronze/brass strip tight to the lug on top of the starter motor? I've seen them made from wood,and plastic.The spring tension from just the strip is NOWHERE near enough to make a solid connection.

[Bob C]

The Ford 6V solenoids have an isolated ground and you need to supply a ground
to the small terminal to energize the solenoid.

[nkaminar]

I am not familiar with that solenoid but if after wiring it up as Bob C recommends and it still does not work then you can test the solenoid by taking a battery cable and connecting the lugs on both sides. I know you took the solenoid out of the circuit by touching the negative cable to the lug on the switch, but bypassing the solenoid in place will test whether it is the solenoid or a connection problem.

In the past I have bypassed a solenoid by using a pair of pliers.

[eagle]

Ive seen "turning over the brass strip" before and it worked just fine. Check to see if the solenoid is chattering due to low power when the starter is engaged. Best way to troubleshoot this issue is to use a second battery to activate the solenoid. Now to get on my soap box , one of the things that makes a model A a model A is the foot operated starter.

[Russell Reay]

UPDATE- I returned the Amazon solenoid and got one from O'Reilly made for a 1948 Ford pickup. It looks the same as the photo in my OP--single pole. It is NOT grounded. To determine if the blue wire from the momentary switch is too small (12ga) I connected a 10 ga wire direct from the battery to the single pole on the solenoid, and activated the circuit with my ground cut-off switch. Starter engaged, but still had the nasty chatter--Oreilly's chatter is a different dialect than Amazon's , but still indicates a deficiency. Discovered a push button on the bottom of the solenoid, so pushed that, and starter engaged perfectly with no extraneous sounds. At this point, the only less-than-perfect connection is the bent copper strip in the starter switch, but after trying all combinations of circuitry, the only time the solenoid acts up is when it is activated thru the pole. BTW-the momentary switch is from NAPA, and sourced as for a 1948 Ford pickup--Screw connections, no pigtail. Can't believe I have two defective solenoids--any thoughts??

[GPierce]

Not sure what you mean by “not grounded”.
Did you have the solenoid case grounded? I have runt into this problem where I had to run a separate ground wire from one the mounting ears to a good chassis ground.

[Bob C]

I and others have tried to explain to you that the small terminal needs to be grounded for the solenoid to work. The early Ford solenoid is a circuit #2 with isolated ground. The partial 1948-49 Truck wiring diagram posted show the starter button is grounded.

[Big hammer]

It would help us if you would take a photo of the wiring diagram that came with the solenoid.
The small terminal may be powered internally in the solenoid, if it is then you would only need to ground that small terminal for the starter to motor

[Y-Blockhead]

Most 6v solinoids are wired like this.

[Russell Reay]

I will yield to multiple admonitions to ground the solenoid. It is bolted to the firewall using star washers, but I didn't make special effort to scrape away some paint. When I wire a ground I will go direct to the battery. Also, the momentary switch is not grounded. This solenoid has only one small terminal, not two. Will report back tomorrow

[Russell Reay]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

Most 6v solinoids are wired like this.

Just got this, and will try it.

[jrelliott]

The solenoid get juice from the battery cable. The blue wire as you referred is the pick for the coil in the solenoid. Check the switch connection to ground. To test the solenoid, run a wire from the terminal on the solenoid and momentarily touch it to ground. Suspect the solenoid will work correctly.

[Russell Reay]

OK, Chapter 3. With a test light the solenoid is definitely grounded, and the body of the momentary switch is definitely grounded. With no power to the mom. switch the switch on the bottom of the solenoid works as it should. With no power from yellow wire (battery) to the mom switch, there is no juice to the blue wire, ie wired exactly as in Y's post. Also, solenoid did not include a wiring diagram. Per jrelliot, this action yields no results. Is it possible that using the solenoid wired to connect yellow to switch to blue to starter I fried the solenoid?

[Bob C]

Is the white wire going to a ground?

[Russell Reay]

Originally Posted by Bob C

Is the white wire going to a ground?

Yes, but when it is, there is no response from the solenoid when the mom. switch is pressed>> blue wire to the solenoid.

[katy]

Jumper from "ground" to the small terminal of the solenoid. If the solenoid energizes you're in business. If that doesn't do anything, jumper from the "hot" side of the solenoid to the small terminal. If neither of these tests does anything, either the solenoid is NG or it's probably 12 volt.

[Russell Reay]

Originally Posted by katy

Jumper from "ground" to the small terminal of the solenoid. If the solenoid energizes you're in business. If that doesn't do anything, jumper from the "hot" side of the solenoid to the small terminal. If neither of these tests does anything, either the solenoid is NG or it's probably 12 volt.

Jump from ground to small terminal = nada. Jump from small terminal to hot cable = starter engages, but same nasty chatter as first reported

[jrelliott]

Have you checked the continuity from the large terminal to the blue wire? One of the large connections should have continuity to the coil in the solenoid. That is the one that should go to the battery and the yellow wire is connected to that terminal. The other large terminal goes to the starter. Have you tried to find some info on the internet by searching on the solenoid number?

[CWPASADENA]

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Take the blue wire off the solenoid. Take a jumper wire with one end connected to a good ground and touch the other end to the small terminal on the solenoid and see what happens.

The original Ford push button starter switch had only one connection for a wire. The case of the switch was grounded. When the button was pushed, a ground signal was sent to the small terminal of the solenoid.

Chris W.

[katy]

Originally Posted by Russell Reay

Jump from small terminal to hot cable = starter engages, but same nasty chatter as first reported

Sounds like either a faulty solenoid or it's a 12 volt solenoid. I would suspect it'a a 12 volt solenoid. Try a separate 12 volt source connected one side to ground and the other side to the solenoid small terminal.

For a separate 12 volt source a 12 volt old school battery charger should work or jumpers from a modern car.

HTH

[Russell Reay]

Originally Posted by CWPASADENA

Take the blue wire off the solenoid. Take a jumper wire with one end connected to a good ground and touch the other end to the small terminal on the solenoid and see what happens.

The original Ford push button starter switch had only one connection for a wire. The case of the switch was grounded. When the button was pushed, a ground signal was sent to the small terminal of the solenoid.

Chris W.

HALLEJUJAH !! This recommendation and jr's directions to test continuity resulted in success. The battery cables into and out of the solenoid were reversed. I didn't notice until I was all done that the big studs are labeled. Thanks to everyone for your patience

[Big hammer]

Damn I was thinking that the heavy wires where switched, but that was late last night. So the power comes into the right terminal, out through the left terminal after the small terminal is grounded ( this is for others that may have the same problem)

[Russell Reay]

Originally Posted by big hammer

damn i was thinking that the heavy wires where switched, but that was late last night. So the power comes into the right terminal, out through the left terminal after the small terminal is grounded ( this is for others that may have the same problem)

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