Model B Ford 4 cylinder identification

[Orca62]

Hi, I just acquired a Model B engine that was in storage for over 40 years. My question is how do I identify what year it is, and if it has a counter balanced crankshaft. Previous owner pulled it from a believe a 1932 Ford couple to install a V-8 engine. Thanks.

[rockfla]

32 4cyl engines started at 5.000,000. and the Decermber ending log number was 5.179,579. Jan 1933 started with 5,179,580 and ended in December log #5,263,534. 1934 was starting 5,263,535 to 5,292,536. The counter balanced crank was put into running production in November of 1932 but NO exact engine number listed as the start!!! SO somewhere around "5,165,402 ish to 5,175,635 ish" started the counter balanced crank....potential rebuilds and or replacements NOT withstanding.

[rockfla]

Sorry but I don't have a picture of the standard B crank compared to a counterweighted counterpart, ALL I have is a B crank (left) compared to an A crank (right). I would "think" the drill holes on the lobes of the crank as seen on the left crank would be the indicator???

[cas3]

Thats my photo above, they are both B cranks, just one early and one late. Sometimes you can see thru the fuel pump hole or the oil fill hole with a flashlight to see if it has the counter balanced crank

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by rockfla

32 4cyl engines started at 5.000,000. and the Decermber ending log number was 5.179,579. Jan 1933 started with 5,179,580 and ended in December log #5,263,534. 1934 was starting 5,263,535 to 5,292,536. The counter balanced crank was put into running production in November of 1932 but NO exact engine number listed as the start!!! SO somewhere around "5,165,402 ish to 5,175,635 ish" started the counter balanced crank....potential rebuilds and or replacements NOT withstanding.

Unfortunately the "engine" number appears on the flywheel housing and he didn't say he had that.

Charlie Stephens

[DavidG]

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If the engine's bell housing is absent, that's where the engine number was stamped. The front timing gear cover will identify it as being a '32 or '33-'34 if the bell housing is missing. Can you provide a photo of the front of the engine?

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by cas3

Thats my photo above, they are both B cranks, just one early and one late. Sometimes you can see thru the fuel pump hole or the oil fill hole with a flashlight to see if it has the counter balanced crank

I stand corrected then!!!

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by rockfla

Sorry but I don't have a picture of the standard B crank compared to a counterweighted counterpart, ALL I have is a B crank (left) compared to an A crank (right). I would "think" the drill holes on the lobes of the crank as seen on the left crank would be the indicator???

[KiWinUS]

Here’s a counter weighted B crank I just removed.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by KiWinUS

Here’s a counter weighted B crank I just removed.

[Newc]

Pressed on counter weights can block the regrinding stones. Intake styles did change a bit. Is there a diamond casting mark on head or block? Newc

[Orca62]

O.K. Thanks for the replies. No bell did not come with it. So I will take photos of front cover and start there. And I will try and look down fuel pump hole to see what I can. Will take me a day or two before I get back on this but will report back. Motor is going into sprint car circa 1940,s. I have a Model A transmission and a lightened flywheel assembly for it. Was looking up adapting the Model A transmission to the B motor. I will only be using transmission for in/out box high gear only. o not know how much of a chore it is to adapt Model A gearbox to B motor. Or just locate a B transmission and gut it. Thanks.

[J Franklin]

If you plan to use the engine, drop the pan and take a proper look.

[Charlie Stephens]

I did exactly what you are asking about several years ago. The engine in my ’31 RDPU was tired and need to be replaced. I had a recently rebuilt “B” engine under the bench. I kept the Model A flywheel housing. I cut off the back of the Model B oil pan since it interfered with the Model A flywheel housing. I left a strip of metal on the pan rather than risk a leak from removing the rivets. Everything bolted together. It is my understanding that if I need to drop the rear main to adjust shims, I might have to pull the engine.

Charlie Stephens

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I did exactly what you are asking about several years ago. The engine in my ’31 RDPU was tired and need to be replaced. I had a recently rebuilt “B” engine under the bench. I kept the Model A flywheel housing. I cut off the back of the Model B oil pan since it interfered with the Model A flywheel housing. I left a strip of metal on the pan rather than risk a leak from removing the rivets. Everything bolted together. It is my understanding that if I need to drop the rear main to adjust shims, I might have to pull the engine.

Charlie Stephens

[Orca62]

O.K. I got a quick chance to get in the garage today and look at the timing cover. It looks like a 1933-34 cover according to a website. It is going to rain the next 2 days but as soon as it ends I will back out our Corvette and get the B motor out of it's nitch to photograph it and try and take a peek in the fuel pump hole. Yes I will be tearing down the motor pan to see what the bottom looks like then move accordingly what should be done. And thank you for the A box to B engine conversion. Do not know which way to go yet but will keep my options open. Guess my question will be supporting the motor and transmission on the believe 1925 or1926 Model T chassis that the sprint car was made from. Trying to determine holes where engine tranny would have bolted up to the chassis. I will not need a clutch as it will be an in /out box setup but need to determine how the power plant was suspended. I may have a source for a Model B box complete but taken apart. Price will determine that. As I said will be gutting the innards and only be using high gear. And of course modify the shifter handle. My other race car was a V-8 60 tin side with the bell housing chopped off to safe weight and space so the motor was bolted to a motor plate and a Model A gear box gutted with high gear only bolted to the rear of the motor plate and a sawed off bent shifter handle bolted to the back side of the motor plate. And I had a clutch spud on the crank so no flywheel so she could spin up quickly. That is the way she was built and raced.

If I could fit a clutch pedal in the cockpit and an on board starter in this racer it would be more convenient and maybe keep all the gears in the transmission. Racer will be for exhibition shows only. Thank you for the help.

[Charlie Stephens]

I doubt a '33-'34 engine was pulled from a '32. Here is a picture of the front cover for a '33-'34. Note that the mount for the generator sets the generator back towards the rear of the car to allow for the fan to be set back to clear the sloped radiator on a '33-'34. See first photo. The water pump is shorter, see second photo (the '32 is on the left). The front pulley is also shorter (no photo).

Charlie Stephens

[DavidG]

A '33-'34 four will fit in a '32 chassis, especially if it has the early '33 front motor mount bracket with the same front motor mount spacing on the front cross member of 12" like '32s.

[cas3]

Davidg, not a 32 chassis if I am reading this correctly, but model T.

The last 2 years of T production they put a Vin number on the right rail about in the center of the door jamb. They also increased the thickness of the rail about that time which is why it was the preferred dirt track chassis.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I doubt a '33-'34 engine was pulled from a '32. Here is a picture of the front cover for a '33-'34. Note that the mount for the generator sets the generator back towards the rear of the car to allow for the fan to be set back to clear the sloped radiator on a '33-'34. See first photo. The water pump is shorter, see second photo (the '32 is on the left). The front pulley is also shorter (no photo).

Charlie Stephens

[Orca62]

Hi. Pulled the motor out to look at it today. There are counterweights on the crank. I took a few photos and will post next. Thanks.

[Orca62]

Here are the photos.

[Orca62]

So I assume I have a 1933-34 B motor by the photos above?

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Orca62

Here are the photos.

[Orca62]

And I am sorry to confuse the forum. I will be installing this B motor in a 1926-27 Model T chassis. The guy I bought the motor from said it was from a 1932 Coupe. He got it many years ago from a long time collector Glenn Slack. According to the story the B motor was being pulled out and a V-8 was being installed. My issue is what do I really have, can I adapt a Model A transmission to the B motor, if this is too much work I will just buy a B transmission and finally I can see how to hang front of motor to the Model T frame but are there ears on a B transmission to make mounts to the frame? Thanks.

[DavidG]

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It's consistent with its origin, a '32 coupe. And it most definitely has an original counterbalanced crankshaft.

The rear transmission mount from a '33-'34, which is fully interchangeable with any '32 rear transmission mount, is probably your best bet as they have ears which the '32 mounts do not have.


For reference, the attached photo gives a head-on view of the '33-'34 four cylinder timing gear cover. Note the different placement of the attachment points of the front mounting bracket on the timing gear cover compared to your '32.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by DavidG

It's consistent with its origin, a '32 coupe. And it most definitely has an original counterbalanced crankshaft.

The rear transmission mount from a '33-'34, which is fully interchangeable with any '32 rear transmission mount, is probably your best bet as they have ears which the '32 mounts do not have.


For reference, the attached photo gives a head-on view of the '33-'34 four cylinder timing gear cover. Note the different placement of the attachment points of the front mounting bracket on the timing gear cover compared to your '32.

[Bob C]

What is this in the hand crank ratchet ?

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Bob C

What is this in the hand crank ratchet ?

[Orca62]

O.K. Thanks for the help. So it is a 1932 B motor. Great. I can use the front motor mount as is. So my next issue will be attaching the rear of the drive train to the frame. Frame measures 23 5/8 inches outside to outside. Does the Model B bell housing have bolt holes on each side where the frame spacers attach to the frame and bell housing like a Model A bell housing. I do not have a B bell housing or transmission to look at. I have a Winfield downdraft carb. and a (home made) intake manifold that came from a circa 1940's sprint car. I also have a header style tube exhaust manifold again from a sprinter. Missing the water pump,distributor, bell housing. Just purchased a Model B fuel pump at a recent show. I may just use it or a hand pump setup as they did in the past. Believe I have a Model A flywheel and clutch setup that was lightened up. Will this work with a Model B motor? How can I identify a A flywheel from a B flywheel? Thanks.

[Orca62]

O.K. Just looked up a 1932 Ford 4 cylinder transmission and bell housing. The B bell housing has no provision for frame mounting and the rear of the transmission has the ears on there to attach (hang) the rear of the motor to the frame. And there is no provision for the clutch pedal if I decide to go that route and have a clutch. Now I understand why some race cars used the Model A setup and modify the oil pan. The Model A bell housing has provision to attach motor to frame and the pedals are attached to it also. And then finally do I use a Model A flywheel on the B motor if it fits or have to acquire a B flywheel. Thanks.

[Will Kimble]

With what you’re doing I sure would think some more about a B transmission. The missing pieces aren’t hard to find and it is way better than an A transmission. The ‘32 B flywheel housing sorta had the mounts you are after, but they held steady rod brackets in ‘32. Easy to adapt I would think? Plus the B transmission would give you the option of all the early V8 rear retainers. And more gear choices. Finally, there used to be a bracket made to put A pedals on a B transmission - maybe check Bert’s? Or adapt the one from the Cling’s kit.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Orca62

O.K. Thanks for the help. So it is a 1932 B motor. Great. I can use the front motor mount as is. So my next issue will be attaching the rear of the drive train to the frame. Frame measures 23 5/8 inches outside to outside. Does the Model B bell housing have bolt holes on each side where the frame spacers attach to the frame and bell housing like a Model A bell housing. I do not have a B bell housing or transmission to look at. I have a Winfield downdraft carb. and a (home made) intake manifold that came from a circa 1940's sprint car. I also have a header style tube exhaust manifold again from a sprinter. Missing the water pump,distributor, bell housing. Just purchased a Model B fuel pump at a recent show. I may just use it or a hand pump setup as they did in the past. Believe I have a Model A flywheel and clutch setup that was lightened up. Will this work with a Model B motor? How can I identify a A flywheel from a B flywheel? Thanks.

The Model A flywheel will work on the Model B motor. If you decide to run a Model B transmission you will need to cut down the the Model A flywheel to clear the bell housing which has probably already been done if yours is lightened. The attached photo shows the two flywheels, Model B on top.



Charlie Stephens

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Orca62

O.K. Just looked up a 1932 Ford 4 cylinder transmission and bell housing. The B bell housing has no provision for frame mounting and the rear of the transmission has the ears on there to attach (hang) the rear of the motor to the frame. And there is no provision for the clutch pedal if I decide to go that route and have a clutch. Now I understand why some race cars used the Model A setup and modify the oil pan. The Model A bell housing has provision to attach motor to frame and the pedals are attached to it also. And then finally do I use a Model A flywheel on the B motor if it fits or have to acquire a B flywheel. Thanks.

The rear mount for the Model B transmission was a flat plate that bolted to the "K" member in the '32 frame. The center was isolated in rubber to reduce vibration.

Charlie Stephens

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

The Model A flywheel will work on the Model B motor. If you decide to run a Model B transmission you will need to cut down the the Model A flywheel to clear the bell housing which has probably already been done if yours is lightened. The attached photo shows the two flywheels, Model B on top.



Charlie Stephens

[rich b]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

The rear mount for the Model B transmission was a flat plate that bolted to the "K" member in the '32 frame. The center was isolated in rubber to reduce vibration.

Charlie Stephens

Rear mounts can easily be added to the '32 rear mount plate or as DavidG mentioned a '33-'34 rear mount plate which has mount tabs can be used instead.

Setting it up with a clutch would prove more friendly for exhibition and display.

Just been discussing this a buddy about his old race car which he found had a coupler on the back of the engine instead of a clutch.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

The rear mount for the Model B transmission was a flat plate that bolted to the "K" member in the '32 frame. The center was isolated in rubber to reduce vibration.

Charlie Stephens

[Bored&Stroked]

I'd think about using a 32 - B transmission with the later gear set (39 - 48). You'll have a good synchro setup for 2nd and 3rd gear and parts are readily available.

[Orca62]

O.K. I thank you all for your input. I will pursue the Model B transmission I was offered. Will make thing easier. Will report back as to what I find. Appreciate the help.

[cas3]

I always found B transmissions are hard to find. you could get one of Klings adaptors to hook a v8 transmission to an A or B motor and then use any v8 trans you find. Much more common I believe.